Doubting Marcus

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Posts tagged with "faith"

May 9

Faith is a Rule Changer… Sometimes

As a skeptic I’ve read and taken part in many debates with believers who follow the familiar pattern: A debate on a topic begins and after some time the believer acknowledges that the skeptic has made some strong arguments but instead of acknowledging that maybe they should reconsider their position the believer says “you just have to have faith.”

Now we all know you can’t argue with faith because it is by definition impervious to evidence but you can point out that the acceptance of faith isn’t a good thing epistemologically, it just doesn’t lead to knowledge. However what I find more important is to point out what just occurred. We were both playing the same game by the same rules, attempting to prove our views with logic and evidence, but as soon as it became apparent the skeptic had defeated the logic and evidence of the believer, the believer changed the rules of the contest. Now you can’t stop people from doing this but you can try to make them acknowledge that to withdraw from the use of reason purely when it doesn’t fit them anymore is an admission that the belief they hold isn’t rationally based, or at the very least they are currently out of rational reasons and should permanently stop using those arguments just refuted.

In moral terms abortion, same-sex marriage and the death penalty are all subject to faith claims on all sides of the issue. So if someone is to reasonably decide if any of these are moral we must clearly reject faith as a guide to do so. Still, for example, Obama’s support of same-sex marriage today will undoubtedly be met with claims of immorality based solely on the fact it contradicts a faith position that homosexuality is immoral. As my previous post indicated, I don’t buy for a moment any arguments that homosexuality is immoral but because morality is one of last places in public discourse where it is still acceptable to use religious beliefs as the sole justification for a position. As a result people who oppose same-sex marriage largely don’t even bother to make arguments to support their position.

However in science, where creationism and a small minority of climate change deniers disagree with established science because of their religious beliefs, it’s no longer publicly acceptable, at least not in political or legal discourse, to replace argument with an explicit expression of faith. When people do this they are roundly dismissed as unfairly, and unconstitutionally, attempting to force their religious beliefs onto secular society. Now there aren’t any moral positions supported the way the theories of evolution and climate change are, but I think secular people must be just as vigilant in pointing out the unfair and unconstitutional move from using reasoning and evidence to faith positions with regard to morality as they are about issues of science. It’s our responsibility to remind them either that retreat into faith should be allowed in every field, which would make rational discourse impossible, or it shouldn’t be allowed anywhere.

You may believe through faith [a] completely beneficial thing but if it’s no more likely to be true than the faith of someone else you just lost all power to say that they are wrong. You can only say that you are different.

- JT Eberhard - on the problem of justifying beliefs through faith

(Source: youtube.com)

Feb 2

The heavy-lidded satisfaction that marks the graduate of seminary, madrassa, or yeshiva is that of someone who has gained a standard of accuracy beyond ignorant questioning—one which also gratifyingly confirms prior assumptions. Even the most sincere come to faith as seekers; their reasoning, necessarily, is motivated—and their ability to select their material makes any appearance of objectivity an illusion. Their minds play only home games: since faith motivates their reasoning, their reasoning can make no sense to those outside the faith. Though all are intent on the same objective—obedience to divine law—the devout necessarily lack a common standard of accuracy: hot Hassid and cold Litvak have no shared premises; the mystic Sufi will never convince the devout Wahhabi; the Propaganda Fidei cannot judge the tenets of Pentecostalism. The great advance of the Renaissance, even before the rise of science, came when we stopped trying to convince each other through quotation and turned instead to evidence, present and real, as the basis for mutual understanding.

- Michael and Ellen Kaplan - on theology as motivated reasoning from their book Bozo Sapiens

Everything is not Empirical: Help! The mean Christians are persecuting me!

the-quiet1:

I’ve always found it silly that citing the majority of Americans wouldn’t vote for an atheist president is supposed to prove atheists are a persecuted group. This isn’t a proof of hate, just a political problem, based on who the “atheist movement”, if you will, appears to be linked to. This is…

The perception of atheists has been this negative or far worse for centuries so the miniscule attention that people like Dawkins, Harris and Hitchens get can not be the underlying cause of the hatred.

It’s far more likely that the picture painted in religions as atheists being immoral (as they think only religion can give one morals), the lies that atheism was responsible for genocide and the notion right in the texts themselves that atheists are “fools” who secretly know there is a god but choose to disobey this god. In particular in America the Red Scare contributed heavily to the backlash against secular people as “godless communists” were the enemy and as a result atheists were the enemy. Moreover these same atheists that you blame for the unpopularity in the US speak in Europe, particularly in the UK, and yet this bigotry is not present there.

When the average religious person in the U.S. hears the word “atheist” they are much more likely to think of a satan worshiper who has no sense of morality than they are to think of Dawkins (if they have ever even heard of Dawkins). Additionally none of those atheists you mention denies that religion can be used for good and to argue otherwise is to set up a straw-man. What they are actually doing is daring to treat religion as they would any other subject or philosophical position. I certainly agree that secular groups could use a good jolt of PR but that’s largely to more effectively combat the outright lies often told and believed about atheists primarily from religious texts and leaders.

Lastly your analogy between Republicans and anti-theists is flawed because none of the popular atheists, or any atheists I know of, are proposing that religious people be denied civil rights but instead they openly promote freedom of religion. There really isn’t an apt analogy because only with religion is it forbidden to even attempt to measure the pros and cons of the subject. To examine religion critically and not conclude it’s amazing in all times and all places or to blame religion for negative actions committed for explicitly religious reasons is to be considered beyond extreme. Ultimately you can say, and I do think, that atheists need better PR but to claim people like Harris or Dawkins are even largely responsible for the hate of atheists is ludicrous.

(Source: the-quiet1-has-a-new-blog)

AronRa - ‘If You Only Believed, Like I Believe, Baby” FreeOK 2011 Speech

AronRa speaks on constraints and pitfalls of religious beliefs in this near hour long lecture from the Oklahoma Freethought Convention.

The Thinking Atheist

If a man should tell you he had the most beautiful painting in the world, and after taking you where it was should insist upon having your eyes shut, you would likely suspect either that he had no painting or that it was some pitiful daub. Should he tell you that he was a most excellent performer on the violin, and yet refused to play unless your ears were stopped, you would think, to say the least of it, that he had an odd way of convincing you of his musical ability. But would this conduct be any more wonderful than that of a religionist who asks that before examining his creed you will have the kindness to throw away your reason? The first gentleman says: “Keep your eyes shut; my picture will bear everything but being seen. Keep your ears stopped; my music objects to nothing but being heard.” The last says: “Away with your reason; my religion dreads nothing but being understood.

- Robert Ingersoll - from his lecture on Thomas Paine on the idea of faith

(Source: manybooks.net)

Aug 9

Another Godless Goddess: Fox News Facebook Page Gets Over 8,000 Death Threats After Segment on WTC Cross

Just over a week ago the group America Atheists filed a lawsuit to prevent a cross from being erected at the World Trade Center Memorial site. 

The cross in question is actually two broken girders from the original tower that were found in the rubble and roughly make the shape of the Christian cross.

Last week Blair Scott, the Communications Director for the American Atheists, appeared on Fox News show America Live to discuss the lawsuit.  It went as you might imagine.

However, it’s the online aftermath that’s getting much of the attention.  Following Scott’s appearance Fox News’ FaceBook page received more that 8,000 death threats against atheists.

The All Facebook blog reports that “the admins of Fox’s Facebook page worked furiously to delete the hateful posts” but not before some savvy viewers screen-grabbed them for posterity.

8,000 death threats.  Eight THOUSAND.

I tend to side closer to ProfMTH about the merits of suing over the “cross” but this response is appalling. However I’d be interested to know how many death threats are left under their typical facebook posts or under any facebook post from any major political or news organization that brings up a potentially contentious issue.

Given the current discourse of politics in America I would not be surprised if this was a frequent type of outburst in general in comment sections albeit uncommon on facebook given the fact there is no anonymity.

Aug 7

Which leaders of the major faiths acknowledge that their beliefs might be incomplete or erroneous and establish institutes to uncover possible doctrinal deficiencies? Beyond the test of everyday living, who is systemically testing the circumstances in which traditional religious teachings may no longer apply? (It is certainly conceivable that doctrines and ethics that may have worked fairly well in patriarchal or patristic or medieval times might be thoroughly invalid in the very different world we inhabit today.) What sermons even-handedly examine the God hypothesis? What rewards are religious skeptics given by the established religions—or for that matter, social and economic skeptics given by the society in which they swim?

- Carl Sagan - on the difference between science and religion from The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Aug 3

Mr. Deity and the Believing Brain

Mr. Deity seeks help to make his creatures more gullible.

Mister Deity

Aug 2

Can you please try to explain why blind faith and pure obedience is so coveted in Christianity?

Anonymous

I think it comes down to a process of elimination. When you don’t have evidence and reason on your side what choice do you have? If any religion were to give up faith and obedience they would be left to try to convince people based on evidence and reason alone essentially making them no longer a religion.

Without evidence all you are left with to convince people is to tell them they need to believe without evidence, faith, or that they should just obey, possibly due to threats or rewards. In Christianity these instructions are written right into their holy books and for the advancement of their religion this is a good thing. So in my very amateur opinion it’s only natural that faith is stressed because if Christians had to present objective evidence and reason to defend their beliefs they wouldn’t be able to survive, at least not as a religion, and neither would any other religion.

Thanks for the question.